Speed on reach in good breeze

[thinwater]

I am considering selling my current boat (Stiletto 27) and I already know I am going to miss the speed in light to modest wind. I have narrowed down my choices to the Gemini 105m and the PDQ Altair. I see a lot a like in both. My question is, what is the maximum motoring speed, and what is the maximum sailing speed, say on a broad reach in a 20 knot breeze with a reacher - not the at I would always push for speed - it is just a means to get a feel for the difference. Since the weight and rig are similar, I wouldn't think the difference would be so great. I also looked for racing yardstick comparisons, but could find none.

Of course, any comments by someone who has sailed both would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks.

[Page 83]

I came from a Stiletto 30 (hull 19) to a PDQ 32 several years ago, but I knew at the outset that outrageuos, screaming reaches were not on the menu any more. I had reached that point in life where big, sit up bunks, social sized tables, a real head with shower, etc. were more appealing. While I considered the Gemini, there was never much question when a good PDQ 32 came on the market. Here's why:
I had been in the business before, selling sailboats, managing a marine hardware store, doing repair work and renovation. I had aquired a distrust for boats built to a price rather than a quality standard. We were dealers for a range of manufacturers, from C&C, Pearson, The Bangor Punta boats down to Catalina, Venture and (choke) Mexican built Clipper. The last three were built to a price, the very last to 1970's pesos. They were all shiney on the outside. They were worlds apart on the inside.
There will always be a market for the "most for your money" buyer. And Gemini has survived in that market very well. But I never quit marvelling at the quality of workmanship, materials, and hardware on my PDQ, compared to the bottom feeders. I now own a 36, which I lavish attention upon. The love affair continues. But I'm having to replace or repair less stuff on my fifteen year old boat than a friend with a five year old Gemini.
The fact is that a Gemini 105 heels more but can outpoint any shoal draft keeled catamaran. If kept light, A Gemini is faster on a reach, And a Gemini is always and forever cheaper than any other cat near its size. That's a good thing because PDQs are beyond the reach of many people who would like to own a multihull cruiser. A thousand Geminis have been built. Two hundred PDQ sailboats were built. I've seen very old Geminis for $40G, but I haven't seen a PDQ 32 for much less than $100g.
So, if you haven't been infected by the quality bug, a Gemini will do, and save you a LARGE pile of money. And the fact that there ARE very old Geminis around means that they don't necessarily die young.

[doubledutch]

When I was shopping for a cat I had the Gemini on my short list but the quality of the PDQ32 and our preference for the layout of the boat won out. At the same time as we were shopping we met another couple with the same short list - they bought the Gemini and we sail in the same water so we have had a number of opportunities to compare performance. In spite of the fact that we carry a dingy on davits while they leave theirs on their mooring we have left them behind repeatedly. We have even overtaken them heading upwind where they were pointing higher but our speed advantage outweighed the need for a couple extra tacks.
I think the PDQ is more weight sensitive than the Gemini so liveaboards probably don't report the same speed advantage.
Our 32 will sail at over 10 knots once the wind hits 15 knots - our best speed has been about 13.5 knots in about 20 knots of wind.
Henry

[Kokomo]

Sandy: Nice analysis...

[halfmoon]

If at all possible, spend time on both boats. We had planned to buy a new Gemini until we chartered one for a week. We then chartered a PDQ 36. The difference in quality will be apparent. A major design difference is the visibility at the helm. On the Gemini you look forward through the cabin, on the PDQ you look over it. And, two engines. Try before you buy.

[maxicrom]

Thinwater,

I tend to agree with the rest - we also were considering a Gemini 105 and during cat week at the Annapolis boat show did the tour of the Performance plant and took a test drive - we had about an 18 Kt breeze on the bay the little Gemini kicked up it heels, with the screecher it was blast. But in the end we decided on the PDQ 36 for the following reasons:

* Carftsmanship: we looked inside the Gemini cabinets and found rough finish in a number of out of the way areas - raw FG edges.
* Space: Overall room for the price (I realize that we are comparing a 32 to a 36).
* Systems: The rope pulley sytems (legacy outboard models , all keel and rudder assy.) when we asked about the haphazard assy. Perfomance responded that the design was so that they can be easily repaired by the owner. It just looked problematic to me - I've worked many years in the marine repair business (both pleasure and commercial)
* Maintenance: At the factory tour we saw in the hull assenbly line that the fridge unit is installed before the cabin top and is considerably larger than the companionway. Marine fridges eventually fail and this one will have to be disassembled or cut up for replacement.

I'm not Trashing the Gemini because we seriously considered one and looked at many before purchasing our PDQ 36 (if you look at my other threads you will see the work I've done to II the Max adding the second electric motor because the boat was worth the extra effort). The Gemini is a great little Cat but if you are next to a PDQ it is like comparing a Catalina to an Island Packet, close but not the same. The one thing that really stands out on the Gemini is the beam - fits in a standard slip - but you also pay for that in interior space. If the beam is not a prime consideration then I really feel that your best value is with a PDQ.