A new mainsail for a 32 - questions

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Phenix-former-owner
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A new mainsail for a 32 - questions

Post by Phenix-former-owner »

The mainsail on Phenix is 12 years old, and ready to be replaced. I have the original, non-fractional rig. I have a sailmaker here in Chicago that made the mainsail I have now, and I'm inclined to use him again, but he is increasingly difficult to get the attention of, because he is busy. So I am open to using someone else.

- Anyone have any recommendations for a sailmaker.

- What fabric is the best for a new sail? What are people doing?

- Any reason not to go with a loose-fitted mainsail on this boat? Right now, I have a foot with a bolt-rope.

- I have seen a couple of boats sailing around with colored mainsails. The most recent I've seen were a black one and an orange one. That bright-color looks awesome!! Not sure why more don't do this. I have not discussed it with my sailmaker yet, don't want him to think I am crazy. Thoughts?
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Re: A new mainsail for a 32 - questions

Post by chicagocat »

Hey Kevin,
Funny you should mention this. I'm currently getting ready to replace the main on the Florida boat.

1. Regarding sailmakers, I went with UK in Chicago a few years ago for the Anne Z. The Considine brothers there are very cool and very pro. I think I know who you're talking about in Chicago that did your last main. He's a nice guy, but he's sort of like the Trident sails guy who did sails for PDQ. Hard to get hold of…always late..etc. It took me months to get my asymmetrical from him. The thing I like about UK is that they do what they say they'll do and do it on time and well. You could also look on the web and use somebody like Mack Sails. They have a great reputation and are about 10% cheaper than UK, but there's a real advantage to having someone local get the perfect measurement.

2. I went with a mylar sail for performance on the Anne Z, even though UK recommended dacron. I should have listened to UK. The mylar sails are very stiff and really need to be carefully rolled after each sail or they'll get creases, etc. That's fine for the racing guys, but I'm too lazy for that. Dacron is still the way to go for cruisers, I think.

3. I went with a loose footed main last time and that was definitely the right move. Easier to use, better shape, simpler.

4. It's also funny that you mentioned colored main sails. I was just thinking about that the other day. I think they look really cool. The UK loft down here in southwest Florida is going to do the sails for Cat Tales, and I'm going to ask them about it. I'll let you know...
PDQ 36052 - 1996 LRC - "Anne Z" - Chicago
and 2001 PDQ 36 Classic (Tall Rig)- "Cat Tales" - Punta Gorda, FL
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Re: A new mainsail for a 32 - questions

Post by Phenix-former-owner »

chicagocat wrote: 2. I went with a mylar sail for performance on the Anne Z, even though UK recommended dacron. I should have listened to UK. The mylar sails are very stiff and really need to be carefully rolled after each sail or they'll get creases, etc. That's fine for the racing guys, but I'm too lazy for that. Dacron is still the way to go for cruisers, I think.
Interesting on mylar vs dacron, thanks. What do you think about the longevity of mylar vs dacron?

I have a dutchman system now and I really liked it on the new sail 10 years ago. Now, after 10 years, that sail is not so stiff so the first and 2nd folds don't quite drop right with the dutchman. Might go with a Mack Pack, which makes getting the sail cover on a 1 minute job, vs a few minutes on the hardtop with the dutchman
chicagocat wrote: 4. It's also funny that you mentioned colored main sails. I was just thinking about that the other day. I think they look really cool. The UK loft down here in southwest Florida is going to do the sails for Cat Tales, and I'm going to ask them about it. I'll let you know...
Here is the reply I got from a sailmaker that I asked the question to about an orange, pink or yellow colored mainsail. I'm paraphrasing a bit, so I won't name the sailmaker.

He said:
For a sail of any color, instead of 8oz Dacron crosscut, we can twin ply 4 oz cloth together which means making two sails and putting them together.  The untrained eye will never know.  This method also gives a more durable and long life sail.  We have made sails using this process on many occasions ... on one occasion, a customer was taking the boat to Antartica.  He wouldn't have his sails made any other way.  He said it kept repairs and maintenance to a minimum. The price remains about the same.

FYI, his price was about $2400, battens not included.
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Re: A new mainsail for a 32 - questions

Post by thinwater »

I've got a new main on the way from Mack; in a few months I'll have something to report. Boat show discount.
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Re: A new mainsail for a 32 - questions

Post by Phenix-former-owner »

thinwater wrote:I've got a new main on the way from Mack; in a few months I'll have something to report. Boat show discount.
Great. What type of sailcloth? And would you be willing to share the price paid?
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Re: A new mainsail for a 32 - questions

Post by thinwater »

Phenix wrote:
thinwater wrote:I've got a new main on the way from Mack; in a few months I'll have something to report. Boat show discount.
Great. What type of sailcloth? And would you be willing to share the price paid?
I sent a PM.

8.32 oz. High Aspect.
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Re: A new mainsail for a 32 - questions

Post by Phenix-former-owner »

Thanks to all for the notes. I am meeting with my sailmaker here in Chicago on Monday, and we are going to talk about all the alternatives, and I'll be glad to report back here. There may be economies in using my existing sailmaker again, as he can use existing battslides and probably also the existing battens. When he made the last mainsail in 2001, he changed the shape of the shape slightly from the original one, and I am very happy with how this sail has performed.
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Re: A new mainsail for a 32 - questions

Post by Phenix-former-owner »

I spoke to my sailmaker and he followed up with a quote on a new mainsail. The sail would be twin ply of 4 oz material sewn together. Different colors can be chosen for each horizontal panel. As there are 5 battens in the mainsail of Phenix, there are 6 panels.

I have never seen a "big boat" with a multi-colored mainsail like this. You know what they say about pioneers .... arrows in their back!

There are economies in making more than one of these together, so if any 32 owners want to do the exact same sail with the same sailmaker, let me know.

Can you imagine a PDQ 32's main looking like this:
hobie16-action-17-full (Large).jpg
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Re: A new mainsail for a 32 - questions

Post by thinwater »

Got my new Mack mainsail today. Seems well-made and a good fit.

Image

Image

8.62 oz High Aspect Dacron Mainsail
Five full battens with adjustable battslide fittings
2 reefs
UHMW wear strips
Sail area equal to original design specifications
Standard boom cover
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Re: A new mainsail for a 32 - questions

Post by amytom »

I noticed you have three reefing points but only one rigged up. We added a third reef but it's too high for the jiffy reefing to work properly; I imagine yours is the same way. Is there a reason your second reef isn't rigged?

Also, have you thought about a stack pack type sail cover?
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Re: A new mainsail for a 32 - questions

Post by thinwater »

a. The second reef was not rigged because... I forgot on the first sail. It is tied now. The third reef will be tied when needed, old school. I'm sure it will be seldom, but there have been a few days where sailing was reasonable, but I would have liked less main. In part this is because the PDQ 32 balances better with less main and more jib, particularly off the wind. This is true of most boats, but the forward keel on the PDQs makes it more important.

b. I don't care for stack packs; too much junk. I'm happy with lazy jacks.

c. And how are my fellow PDQ sailors attaching the clew to the boom? I hesitate to place the whole stress on a single slug, and the last sail it tended to drag. I tied a jury-rig boom strap and liked the way it slid with the outhaul. I may just sew an improved version.

d. I've been thinking about adding a jammer for the outhaul, so that I will lose less tension when winching the clew out in stronger winds. Has anyone done this?
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Re: A new mainsail for a 32 - questions

Post by thinwater »

A few observations:

* The main sheet load goes up noticeably with a new sail! I upgraded to 3:1 mainsheet tackle from the factory 2:1 a few weeks before and I was glad of it. A simple matter of adding a small block to an un-used becket. How Tom tensions the sheet with an 8:1 tackle in a breeze is beyond me; simply studly.

* Boom strap. If you go to a loose-footed sail you'll need one. You can buy a Velcro strap, have the sail maker supply one (you'll need at least 3 wraps) or make your own from webbing. If you make your own, slip the loop portion of Velcro under the boom (facing the aluminum) so that it slides more easily when out-hauling under load. With this tune-up, I can out-haul the sail under full load without the winch by using the boom cleat and simply pulling outwards several times, like sweating-up a halyard. This is important, since the mast winch cannot be used on port tack. There seems to be an optimum strap tension that results in best outhaul performance (to low, too tight--to high, mainsheet load is on the outhaul).
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Re: A new mainsail for a 32 - questions

Post by amytom »

With all the tackle at the end of the boom it's not that tough to tighten the sheet in a breeze. When the sheet is routed forward and around to the winch the load goes up with more turns taken.

Now tilting old engines with stiff brackets... That's when I started feeling it.


How's the new mainsail affecting the pointing angle?


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Re: A new mainsail for a 32 - questions

Post by thinwater »

Pointing. The new main does not reduce the best aparent wind angle; that is set by the track placement, and even when I moved them inboard, I did not move them too far in. First, the hard top is a limitation (the sheet is tight against it when close hauled), and second, with the windage and foils we have, I would simply crab if I got too greedy. I think my new sheeting angle is about as narrow as she should have.

However, the new main does increase the speed noticably when close hauled in a breeze, as the leach does not fall away and there is less back-winding down low (the old main was too full).

So yes, it does go to weather faster, just not higher. I need to revise my speed polar, when I get more data. Tacks just a little better too, as the tight leach gives a little push.

Also, the loose foot makes me more like to adjust the outhaul; no winching required (the old attached foot sail would flatten just fine, but you had to crank on it).

Tackle. I had boom-end 8:1 on my Stiletto and considered it just enough. I guess I don't like straining. Also, with the tigher jib angles, I HAVE to get it in tighter to recieve benifit.
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Re: A new mainsail for a 32 - questions

Post by Phenix-former-owner »

Took delivery of my new mainsail today. It was made by my sailmaker here in Chicago. Looks ... interesting. I think I'll stand out in the crowd! People walking by the boat slowed their walk or stopped for the 10 mins we had it up on the dock.

Pics below show the sail, but the battens are not in yet, so that is why the roach looks small. A couple of adjustments are being made to the dutchman setup, should be ready in a few days.
IMG_20140517_092614 (Medium).jpg
IMG_20140517_092459 (Medium).jpg
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