PDQ OWNERS FORUM

PDQ aficionados,

A year, or so, ago, we started moving toward this goal of cruising the Caribbean. We started with monos. Sturdy, sailboaty, many to choose from. Than, someone mentioned catamaran. I've got one of those already!! But sailing the Hobie 16 in September in Lake Ontario is not as much fun as it used to be. But wait!! These new-fangled catamarans(old-fangled if you prefer Catalacs, Heavenly Twins, Prouts etc.) were sailable in September, and even January, if you're in Key West. One could conceivably sail(I'm not talking ice-boats here!!) all year round, and all around the world on a catamaran. Yes, according to half-boat owners, much of that time will be upside-down. But, I'd rather be upside-down in the Bahamas than staring at my monohull under a tarp in three feet of snow in Rochester. So, we went to the Annapolis boat show! WOW! How much does that cost? Well, let us just say the lintball in my pocket was bigger than my bankroll. (See my Howdy post for the why.) BTW, I haven't flipped the Hobie in some twenty odd years and still have a blast riding it with the Admiral and Rusty the Seadog.

So, there is a 32LRC in Brunswick, GA., that has been listed on YW for some time now. Perhaps the owner is on here somewhere. I've made an offer. If it is accepted, I'll need a surveyor. I'd like one familiar with these boats, if at all possible. Local would be tremendous too. Who do you like?

One of the things that attracted me to these boats(yes, they are closer to my budget too ) was the 'build quality'. This one has obvious stress cracks in three areas that I've noticed thus far. I will post pix in a moment. The starboard steps going into the hull, similar to ones recently repaired on Z-T-C, looks like it may have been repaired once already. The pic came out blurred, so I won't post it. There are cracks in various places on the sugar scoops. There are signs that parking may have been troublesome as there is damage to three of the four corners of the boat. Buggered up and mangled rub rails support a bumper car mentality.

Then there are the genoa track stress cracks which emanate from each and every bolt hole. The main and jib traveler tracks show no sign of stress cracks. I've seen another 32 Classic. It had no genoa tracks though. I jumped to a possible conclusion that the genoa tracks were not factory installed, and perhaps the installation was not sufficiently beefed up to support the stress involved. Of course, they may have hammered bolts that were too big for the holes in to the deck. It could be 'normal wear and tear'. I am looking for opinions and expertise on this one. I formally agree to hold harmless etc., etc.

We are now at the point of the deal where the owner refuses to budge and indicates he won't flex due to findings of the surveyor either. So, I've got to decide whether to pay his price and drive on with the survey for my own information(as is, where is).

Pix to follow momentarily.

Joe Mc

Genoa tracks:

Sam, the upload is saying my pix are invalid. I hope you don't mind if I post a reference to M4Us where the pix did load fine, in the interest of time.

EDIT BY PHENIX - I uploaded the pictures into this msg on your behalf

I would appreciate any feedback.

http://www.multihulls4us.com/forums/sho ... #post58030

Thanks,

Joe Mc

Our PDQ 32 does not have a Genoa track and I know that Drew's does not either. I don't know if the factory ever did install them. Maybe someone else would know.

The crack that you spoke of, and that I wrote about on our blog, occurred in a spot where the fiberglass was visibly thinner than other areas. Why? I don't know. One thing that I do know is that a properly repaired fiberglass issue can be made to be stronger than original.

I will add this about build quality... all boats have issues. That said, we spend MUCH, MUCH, MUCH less time having to fix our boat than do many of our friends who own much more expensive boats. That is a fact!

Good luck with the survey.

Mike

Thanks Mike,

Joe Mc

Our "DogHouse" doesn't have genoa tracks either (yet). One of the reasons we bought our 32 was that it was flipped and totaled in a hurricane. The original owner even wrote a book about the repairs. When I saw how limited the structural damage was even after the boat was flipped and slammed into and on top of a mangrove island I was sold. The fact that the repairs were less than perfect also meant it was cheaper too. We are slowly (very slowly) smoothing out the fairing and she will someday be just as pretty as the other 32's.
BTW thanks for your service. (I'm am ex FC2 USN)

Back at you AmyTom. I think my dad was an FC2 on a destroyer back in Korea. Sent you a pm. Wooking for nub....

So, a picture is developing such that the tracks may be an aftermarket add-on.

Here is my analogy: I can buy a brand spanking new 2013 Chevy Impala SS. I can order $15000 worth of bolt-on cool stuff that would make it look and sound more like a real race car, like the one that won the 500 last week. It would fit perfectly. But, if I take it out on the race track and press the pedal to the metal, there is a high probability that it will quickly become a piece of junk, depending on what breaks, where and when. The showroom car is not designed to handle that level of stress anymore. Similarly, I can dress up like a Major League Baseball player, stride up to the batters box, and make believe I'm going to hit one out of the park. More likely, I'm just going to soil my pretty uniform.

Those cracks don't seem to be normal on a PDQ. The seller(through the brokers) does not seem to be willing to address findings of significance in a survey. So, do I pay for the survey etc. when there seems to be an obvious defect? This is what I'm wrestling with. The seller is apparently not willing to go to a price where I would feel comfortable moving to the survey. Then I could say I got a good price, it is worth fixing.

We've got cracks. Maybe just gelcoat cracks. I could possibly buy some time for the impending repair by removing the genoa and replacing it with the original self-tacking jib.

You all own your boats. That makes you way more knowledgeable than me. Am I making a mountain out of a molehill?

Joe,

I enjoyed talking with you earlier. I looked at your post on multihulls4us and studied the pictures. For the cracks, they look like minor gelcoat blemishes and wouldn't worry about them. The rub rail damage is disturbing but not a deal breaker; probably just bumped a piling one time too many.

One thing that we all learn is that no boat will be perfectly pretty all the time and you will stress yourself out trying to keep one that way. Dive and fishing gear will also cause similar marks. Keep it structural and functional then look at aesthetics.

A survey will include moisture readings as well as sounding with a mallet and that will tell you much more than minor gelcoat cracks.

Good luck.

Tom,

Yep, that was fun. Thanks for taking a look at those pix. I am feeling more at ease about the stress cracks. But, they're still ugly even if there is no deeper problem as we discussed earlier on the phone.

This part is not just for Tom. Open to all. Maybe I should post it elsewhere in the forum, but I'll try here first. On second thought, I'll post a fresh thread.

BTW, I'm still interested in your view, if you have one.

Thanks in advance.

Joe Mc

Regarding price negotiation, it sounds as if these cracks were visible upon first inspection and we re not revealed by the surveyor. In general, negotiations after survey are only for previously hidden defects or items that you specifically reserved the right to adjust for after survey.

The backing for the genoa track should be obvious. I have those tracks, and given the thickness of the laminate in that area I would strongly suspect it is only gelcoat (didn't camfer the holes).

I believe that boat has been on the market for at least 6 years, based on my observations. I would be most concerned about the engines and drives.

The listing broker has access to the soldboat database, and has advised the seller to price the boat accordingly, if he is serious about selling. Six years on the market is a long time, but two years is not. You, on the other hand, sound like you want to pay much less than market value. This is not a formula for success. You and the seller are not going to reach an agreement. There might not be any owners willing to accept what you want to offer. Successful deals start when buyer and seller are within 20% of each others dream price. Offering less is not the action of a genuine buyer, and pricing a boat more than 20% of a fair market value is not the act of a serious seller. A Surveyor should have the skills to value the boat properly.*

Consider this: If you are shopping beyond your price range, and you aren't a skilled boat repairer, you do not want to buy something you can afford. You will always be backwards on its value.

I don't see anything worrisome about this cat, other than its age spots, and routine parking rash. PDQ's are uniformly well designed and built. Since it takes months to build one, there are no "Friday Boats". They were all built by skilled craftsment with long careers in the industry. That makes them easier to maintain. That makes them hold their value. Less expensive boats are generally more expensive to maintain, making them poor choices for owners with low boaty skills.

* there is a psychological barrier at a hundred thousand dollars (say "six figures" a few times) that buyers and sellers are not willing to cross.

Drew,

Thanks for clearing that up for me. Un-chamfered holes makes sense as the root cause of the cracks I've seen. I have not gotten to survey yet. I was trying to do a bit of due diligence before slapping down the money for the survey. I feel better about the structural integrity of that issue. Now, it is just ugly. According to the broker, the LRC has only been on the market for a year and a half. The seller has owned it about four years. Once again, I appreciate the feedback.

Joe Mc

Sandy,

Thank you for your advice and reassurance on the build quality. I'll try to keep that in mind for the next deal.

Thanks again,

Joe Mc